Is Seth's offer fair?

[Tiara Shafiq]

I was reading this article about a guy who's struggling to get work (after being laid off) to the point of having to distribute his resume on the streets. This bit, about his daughter having the same struggle, reminded me of Seth's offer:

http://www.businessweek.com/blogs/recession_in_america/archives/200...

Now that she's graduated, she'll have an easy time finding work, right? Wrong. She couldn't get an interview for anything. Office assistant, receptionist -- no luck. And the jobs she did get called about were "unpaid internships." Now, tell me how does someone pay commuting costs to New York City, health insurance, and student loans with no pay?

How does an employer have the nerve to call a free employee an "intern"? It's just a way to get an employee in New York for less than the wages paid to a Chinese factory worker.

One strong applicant, Becky, challenged Seth to consider the parameters of his challenge (read it at: http://www.squidoo.com/beckyslifechangingmoment#module12830474) . As an international applicant, I can attest to how the costs are extra difficult, and how this has always been a big issue for international participants (my rant: http://wannabeakp.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/no-cash-no-opportunity-t...)

What do you think? Is Seth's offer fair, or is he missing something? What can be done so that Seth's offer, or anything like it, can be made fairer?

[Tiara Shafiq]

As a former intern/work placement person, I agree that the comment is ignorant - however, it's a comment I hear very often. When I was discussing this Alt MBA with others I heard this remark very VERY often. How do we justify it? Doesn't help that Seth goes and describes this as a "not-internship"!

[Pizzamancer]

I had a very long post, but I just erased it. This sums it up far fewer words:

The cost of being uneducated is immeasurable.


ps who in their right mind would hire a guy standing on a street corner with a sandwich board sign handing out resumes anyway, the whole article was bunk.

[SusanVillasLewis]

Of course it's fair. Seth's gig, Seth's rules. That's fair, right? If the choice is that he doesn't offer it at all because he can't make his own rules, how is that fair? (Begin mental rant about regulation and sticking noses in private businesses, etc.)

Seth is making an immense sacrifice to do this (just how many speaking gigs/other opportunities will he have to give up in order to spend six months with us?). Why shouldn't he demand as much of a sacrifice from us? The willingness to make such a sacrifice is step one of being the kind of person Seth wants. He's looking for world changers, not people who want to create more status quo. He wants to reward risk takers, not people who think unions are good because then wages are "fair". He's looking for people who are passionate about making a change, not ones who are wanting others to change for them. I'd sleep in my car for the next six months if I had to to do this. I'm old enough to understand just how once-in-a-lifetime this kind of opportunity is and would make huge sacrifices to do it.

[Tiara Shafiq]

What is Seth sacrificing? He's hardly risking anything - he's even willing to give this all up if he can't find the "right" people. We're the ones making the bigger sacrifice here - jobs, income, health, travel, etc. It's unbalanced.

You may be willing to sleep in a car; I don't even HAVE that option. I'd have to be an illegal immigrant, and I'm not willing to make that "sacrifice". I've sacrificed a lot for other opportunities before (as Becky or another applicant said, "once in a lifetime" opportunities come every so often if you keep your eyes open) and I've found where my boundaries are. Some things just aren't worth sacrificing.

I'm worried that we're starting to lose perspective here.

[James D Kirk]

Have to agree with SVL, here. At the end of the day, if you don't agree with Seth and the "opportunity" as he's laid it out, why would you spend even 10 seconds working on an application where you "challenged" the host to change what one would assume has been clearly well thought out and deliberated upon? And if you are a person that doesn't see the immense potential outcome of being involved, why "risk" yourself to participate? What message are you sending that even before you have been accepted, you are trying to change the parameters to make your "risk" less? Don't we all have challenges that will need to be overcome? Some more than others? Sure. Some seemingly more fair than others? Probably so as well. At the end of the day, however, who is more likely to be sitting at the table: someone that did what it took or someone that wanted to change the table to a flying carpet?

[Tiara Shafiq]

Firstly, I didn't write the challenge, Becky did - and it's great that she did. Do we all have to blindly agree to Seth's terms? Why shouldn't we challenge Seth at his game? I'd hope that he'd choose people that are willing to question his methods. He can't just expect us to grow and change while he stays stagnant.

I personally wrote the application because I liked the process and I wanted to introduce myself. I've also found quite a few interesting people from this thing, which is great.

I don't think he's really thought this out and deliberated this enough. Or at all. I get the feeling that he came up with the idea one moment and thought "ooh cool" without fully hacking out the implications. Note how he welcomes applications from all over the world, yet when many people ask him about visas - which, as an employer/training provider, he is responsible for - his response is "no idea, can't help you there". Note the sheer lack of time between the closing date and the choosing of finalists. How do you expect to get, say, 50 applications the suitable amount of attention in less than two days?

It's all about return on investment. This is a two-way thing, and Seth has to show that he is himself capable. It's not about making the risk "less" (and don't put "risk" in scare quotes - these are MAJOR RISKS) - it's ensuring that Seth and us realise just what we're getting ourselves into. Seth has to make this worth everything we give up. We don't want to waste our time on a hollow promise, so we have to make sure our investment is worth it.

Look at it this way: Seth's looking for our expertise. We can't we ensure that we are fairly compensated for our time and effort, however the form of compensation? We are skilled enough and talented enough and great enough to demand the respect we deserve.

Let's not all turn into sheep just because there's a big name here. Let's stand up for ourselves.

[SusanVillasLewis]

Do we all have to blindly agree to Seth's terms? Why shouldn't we challenge Seth at his game? I'd hope that he'd choose people that are willing to question his methods. He can't just expect us to grow and change while he stays stagnant.

Nope. Challenge all you like. He likes that. But it doesn't mean he has to change the rules. His game, his rules, not matter how restrictive or impossible they might be for some people. He understands that his pool is immensely smaller because he's set up those rules. That there are a lot of great people he'll miss out on as a result. (Me for one.) That's his loss. But also his choice.

Why is so hard for people to accept the whole concept that he gets to make the rules? Again - his game; his rules. No one is forcing you to apply for the program or accept the rules. They're the rules of a private enterprise of which you don't have to take part. That's the joy of America. (Or used to be - begin another mental rant about trying to force private businesses to conform to stupid rules.)

Let's not all turn into sheep just because there's a big name here. Let's stand up for ourselves.
Not sure Seth wants sheep. And this isn't something that's a right you need to stand up for. It's a scarce opportunity that has some severely limiting factors. You mentioned perspective somewhere else. This statement needs some as well.

[Tiara Shafiq]

Yeah, his game his rules - doesn't mean we don't get to challenge them. It's gonna be our game too, we better have a say in this.

And hey, I'm not American, I work differently ;)

[Matt Cheney]

So wait, are you not going?

[Tiara Shafiq]

I'm not sure if you're asking me or Susan, but if it's to me - I don't think I can go, because my visa doesn't last long enough and I have things on till about March. Had it been later in the year it would actually be a lot more feasible. But who knows what'll happen :)

[Matt Cheney]

I was actually asking both of you. Hopefully this program is successful and he'll either run it again or come up with a virtual version of it. This way last minute visas won't be an issue. I wouldn't expect longer application times as the short time frame he gives separates the serious folks from the curious so he doesn't have to go through as many applications.

[Tiara Shafiq]

(just how many speaking gigs/other opportunities will he have to give up in order to spend six months with us?)

Would he actually give up any of those? Who's to say he won't work on those on the side? It's not like we're going to be his only project for the next six months. We could be one of many.

You want world changers, pony up for them. You want people passionate about change, then make changes yourself.